Yemi Rose | DEI, Financial Health, and the Future of Work

Matt Bahl:
Welcome to Emerge Everywhere, and if you’ve listened to this podcast before, you’ll know I’m not Jennifer Tescher. My name is Matt Bahl. I’m vice president and head of Workplace Financial Health at the Financial Health Network, and I work closely with Jen as we advance opportunities to improve the financial health of America’s workforce. I’m going to be guest hosting a few podcasts over the summer and into the end of the year, focusing on issues and challenges facing America’s workforce. What are the ways in which we can work together to improve the financial health outcomes for working people all across the country? Join me as we dive into conversations exploring the world at work.

Welcome back to Emerge Everywhere with a deep focus on the workplace. I’m privileged to be joined today by Yemi Rose. Yemi is the founder and CEO of OfColor. It’s a digital financial wellness platform that supports workers of color with FinTech saving and budgeting tools. Financial coaching and financial therapy. OfColor was recently acquired by Financial Finesse, one of the leading financial wellness platforms in the country. Yemi writes and speaks extensively on the racial wealth gap, and his writings on the subject have been published in Fast Company, Business Insider Time Magazine, Black Enterprise Tech Crunch, and many other leading national publications. This is a far-ranging conversation about the role of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace, how financial wellness plays a critical part in that, and what the future of these initiatives may look like. Please join me as we go on this journey with Yemi Rose.

A quick note to our listeners, there’s a brief reference of suicide in this episode, so for any listeners who may be sensitive to those subjects, we wanted to make sure you were aware before diving in.

Yemi Rose, welcome to Emerge Everywhere.

Yemi Rose:
Matt, thank you for having me. I’m excited to dig in and have a lively conversation with you.

Matt Bahl:
Same, I’ll spare the audience our long history together working in corporate America before we both transitioned, but I do want to ask just about your journey and your journey, particularly as an entrepreneur. What really inspired you to enter the field as an entrepreneur?

Yemi Rose:
Yeah, no, I definitely have somewhat of a unique perspective. As you know, man, I’m a first-generation immigrant and kind of always been obsessed with racial equity, the racial wealth gap, kind of always fascinated by the American Promise, obviously being a participant observer and the struggle throughout navigating my own personal journey as a Black man in America while focused on making an impact so that my two daughters have a better time making their way than I did. Have a unique experience that blends communications and the communications world. I guess, I would say I was almost an academic. I left about six months before finishing my PhD, blending that with a world of money, both the large company side and from the starter perspective. I moved here as an immigrant from Jamaica in 1997, so I was 18, came for college, and went on a journey that took me from community college to the Ivy League up to Cornell where I was doing that MS PhD in organizational communications.

It kind of became really clear to me after leaving Jamaica, which is a place where folks that look like me are at every level of leadership and government in the private sector, that I was in a new environment where you lead with race. I had to obviously get used to this new caste system, ultimately, I left without getting my PhD. It felt too narrow, and I wanted to go broad. I wanted to climb a lot of disciplines and ultimately went on and became a financial analyst, leveraging some of the communication side, especially communications around money and wealth creation. Again, as a participant observer kind of saw firsthand how a lot of companies were struggling to support workers of color. I remember when we weren’t even allowed to have ERGs that coalesced around race. Really kind of looking at my personal life, looking at this as a pain point, starting to think a lot about shared value and how if I personally felt a little bit more supported, how I could personally be more present within the workplace.

Fast forward a bit and I had a healthy dose of suffering, as is life. I had lost my sister to suicide. Obviously, she struggled with mental health issues, but it was really precipitated by an overwhelming amount of short-term debt that she should really never have been able to accumulate. Got to a point where I really just couldn’t resist the pull to lean into purpose. At that time, I was at BlackRock, I left to join Prudential, where they basically promised that I could do a deep dive into their financial wellness initiatives, deep dive into some large data sets that they had launched a bunch of research focused on underserved groups, and I think when I left I was VP of Financial Wellness Enterprise Initiatives and I was ready to see what I could really do on my own and ultimately, launched OfColor, which is a company that is focused on improving the financial lives of workers of color, right? Leveraging a holistic tool set with financial coaching, financial technology and content that is culturally relevant and speaks to what I like to call the minority money experience.

Matt Bahl:
One of the things that I’m really interested in is not only your unique experience that led you to be an entrepreneur but also what did you see that was missing in some of the existing solutions that workplaces were using that you felt OfColor was solving for, and how, as you built OfColor, what was the user in mind you were designing with in order to bring your service to add value to this new group of workers?

Yemi Rose:
Yeah, gosh, there was so much missing in terms of companies that started to focus on financial health. This is the early days of financial wellness as a concept. Is it a thing? Is it an outcome? Is it a platform? I started to work through that, but what they were offering was not personalized or at least personalized enough for the things that matter for the least served among the workforce. You look at a lot of data today, you see that Black women are the most stressed in most workplaces, they’re the least served. A lot of the tools that were offered, frankly, just didn’t resonate with this cohort. They didn’t necessarily feel it was for them, and that is because they ignored one of the huge, huge, huge pillars of personalization, and that’s race. Race is one of the biggest predictors of financial outcomes we have in the United States, if not the biggest predictor.

A lot of HR teams just didn’t really want to lean in that regard. The thinking was we don’t see color, and in not seeing color, we’re missing disparate outcomes that are rooted in race. They would send out messages about different offerings that would really get ignored in the whole fight for attention, and they weren’t signaling to folks that they see them and that they really understand. I’ve spoken to so many people who say, “Well, I didn’t think the financial advisor would care about my $7,000 in savings.” A lot of Asian American employees were like, “Well, look, I have just culturally I’m leaning in to support my parents’ retirement before I support my own and I need someone that understands that.” We looked at it and said, “You know what? If we are able to provide culturally relevant resources, folks that understand the lived experience of the people that they are creating solutions for, then we would have a much better chance in terms of breaking through, first of all, which is the first big step, and then also inspiring action.”

You look at the political world and just to get someone to vote for a particular candidate, there’s so many attributes that go into that single decision, right? It’s true for all the social sciences. There’s so many variables. Just to get someone to act is a huge undertaking, and you need to make sure that you are getting their attention. You need to make sure that once you have their attention, you’re finding out the root causes of behaviors. That’s why we are in corporate financial therapy. Then after that, you are inspiring action and then you’re motivating them to keep at it. There’s a lot that goes into it, and I thought the approaches that were being used just didn’t really take advantage of the wealth of knowledge we have there.

The second part of your question, who was I building for? I was building for myself. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, when they’re pursuing things, they start with the personal, it’s easiest for them to identify a pain point that they experience. I was that employee who was making a really good salary but not really investing in my retirement. I was sending money through remittance to support folks and help with family. I was that employee, and I really built the tools that I wanted to have in my corporate career.

Matt Bahl:
Yeah. Another aspect that I think is really interesting is as you were thinking about bringing OfColor and this solution into the corporate workspace, so much of it was also important about just shifting the mental models that employers use around how benefits. Talk to me about some of the early conversations you had with HR leaders around this idea providing a benefit that would be personalized to underserved populations in their workforce?

Yemi Rose:
Yeah. Well, I guess first of all, it’s not lost on me that when we started to talk about these things, we were in a period of time. I mean, this was 2020, and there was what some folks call a racial awakening happening across the country where you’re coming out of [inaudible 00:21:54] COVID. By the way, I was terrified. I had left a great position and was about to start a business, and literally, I think two days after, or no, no, the day, that was my last day with a steady job, that was the day when I think I was on the couch with my daughter about to watch the NBA game and they canceled the game because of COVID. I was like, “What have I just done? This is crazy,” but those circumstances kind of shone a light on the disparate outcomes that I talked about, that our roots in race in terms of who could stay home, who could not.

Then, of course, you had the murder of George Floyd, and so folks were really paying attention, and that was kind of a little bit of a tailwind. Folks were more willing to have these conversations and to take some informed risks, but still, a lot of those conversations really revolved around, “Okay, so what is different here, right?” Math is math, compounding interest, compounding interest, what is different? There was a lot of education in terms of saying, okay, really kind of what we just talked about in terms of like, “Hey, you have to let people know that this is for them. You have to make people feel like they’re heard and seen and understood.” Very often the folks that are best equipped to do that are folks that have shared that lived experience. Then there’s also education around outcomes. You’re putting out these solutions, so take retirement solutions, and you may not be paying as close attention to the outcomes and how the outcomes differ by cohort, really along racial lines.

We had folks go back and look at, say for example, their hardship withdrawals and say, “Okay, who’s taking these hardship withdrawals? What do they look like?” Invariably, across the board, this has been consistent. About two-thirds of the hardship withdrawals were coming from employees of color. Then we said, “Okay, so this is kind of a little red flag here that’s indicating that even if you’ve achieved pay equity and a lot of research coming out, like collaborative efforts for equitable retirement savings, has worn us out. Even if you’ve achieved pay equity, you still have workers of color who are struggling with higher levels of student debt.

They’re struggling across the board with higher levels of debt, but student debt is a big issue for a lot of workers. They may be the first in their family to go and get this really good degree, and there’s a responsibility that comes with that. Their cousin may be saying, “Hey, can you help me co-sign this loan?” There is a financial fragility that comes as a result of the racial wealth gap that we can’t ignore. If you really want that ROI, if you really want to create shared value where you’re benefiting in terms of recruitment and retention of your employees and productivity of your employees, it is incumbent on you to really help these employees become more stable. Yeah, it was a lot of education  on both sides. I learned a lot too, and we shared a lot with some of the early adopters and have had really good success with them and use them as examples as we move forward.

Matt Bahl:
Yeah. I’ve had the chance to hear you speak a number of times. I’ve been in rooms with you when you’ve really articulated passionately your love of this work. One of the themes that you’ve always come back to that I’ve always really admired is this notion of trust, and both in terms of where it exists and where it doesn’t. I remember being in a room with you when you were talking with these financial services firms and they had these big initiatives around reaching the Black community, other populations of color, and you very simply asked, “Well, where are you showing up?” They weren’t showing up in any of the places where these folks work. Talk to me about how you think about the role of trust and the importance of building trust in finance and how that really factors into the services you all provide.

Yemi Rose:
Yeah, look, money is extremely personal. It’s extremely personal. Unfortunately, we have a history in this country of almost universal neglect from financial services for folks of color. It’s easy to just put this aside as, “Oh, it’s driven by racism and bias and stuff.” That’s the easy route to take. The other route, which, and there’s object, yes, that is sometimes very true, but the other route is that it’s sometimes very difficult for financial services companies that are driven by a profit motive to make money on users that are underserved, right? Cost the bank the exact same amount to service someone with $2,000 in their bank account as it does with $30,000 in their bank account. You have flight of these types of institutions from communities that need them the most, and that creates, well, first of all, you don’t interact with them as much because there are a lot of financial deserts, but there’s also been a lot of mistrust there.

If you look at studies for credit applications, it sucks, right? Even when they’ve done mystery shopping where folks go in with exactly the same credit score and exactly the same work experience, you see the denial rates much higher for folks of color. There’s a well-earned distrust for financial services systems. You have to understand the history there, that you’re engaging with a population that has well-earned distrust for financial services, and how do you earn that trust? Look, there’s a reason why influencers, for example, are so effective. It’s because you look at influencers and you’re like, “All right, this person is like me. They are like me, they understand what I’m going through.”

There’s a level of comfort there. When you start with a kind of side-eye, a slight distrust, and then you try to get really personal, by that I mean, to talk about money, which is really personal, you are already starting on the back foot. It’s important, and it starts with actually having folks within these organizations that understand experiences. You need the diversity there in order to be able to say, “Okay, where should we be? Where should we be? What are the channels that resonate with these communities? How can we show up there in an authentic way?” Folks, good, bad, in between, authenticity is what really runs the day in terms of when folks connect with you because at least they know what they’re dealing with. I think that’s what folks want. Folks want that level of authenticity. They want people to share their stories and be vulnerable and show them that they understand what they’re dealing with.

Matt Bahl:
Yeah, and I also think so much of this is also being willing to listen and not coming into these spaces and assuming you have answers or certainly treating groups as monoliths. I think that’s one of the big challenges, frankly, that workplace financial health programs have faced too, in others is we’ve certainly seen an increase in workplaces that are disaggregating their data, they’re trying to understand what’s happening, but at times that leads to thinking like, well, that means that every person in this particular demographic group this and treating groups as monoliths. How do you address these questions? You start to segment this data and you think that, well, it’s just this one set of things. This group must all think and act the same.

Yemi Rose:
Yeah, no. On one hand, we want to make change that is at scale, and sometimes the hyper-personalization can work against that. Although, these days, technology has kind of really reduced the risk of that, but you are correct in that you got to listen first. Even me. I have biases, I have a perspective, I have economic biases, I have all these different things that play into how I view the world, and it’s very important for me to listen. I mean, there are so many, I’ll just pick the Black American community, there’s so many different strata in terms of how this community shows up. In fact, Eugene Robinson has a great book from the Washington Post. He has a great book called Disintegration, where he talks about splintering of Black America, and you have the folks that in the category, I fall into the immigrant experience, which is kind of different Black, and now you’re a Black American, and folks, when they look at you, they don’t say, oh, you’re a Black person from Ghana versus you’re a Black person from Indiana.

You are now a part of the Black American experience. You’re benefiting from the work that a lot of Black Americans have put in and you owe a debt there as well, but it’s really nuanced. Then you look at the Asian American community as well where there’s just as much nuance. You have the model minority myth, and you have situations, especially in the workplace where they get stuck in middle management. It is very, very nuanced. The only way you’re going to really understand the specific challenges is by listening. A lot of folks tend to think, “Okay, listen, so we’re going to send out a pulse check survey, we’re going to just do a quick survey and whatever.” You don’t realize that you represent the institution and it is going to be difficult to get folks to put their trust in you, especially with something so personal.

What we have done is, obviously, like I said, it starts with making sure you have the right people, the folks that understand, but then after you’ve done that, you have to kind of share back. You have to show that you understand, and that comes across in the language that you use, the materials that you create. It comes across in everything. Funny enough, I once had, I gave an example once at an event and I was saying something to the effect OfColor, we speak more to car notes than car loans. Everyone can sit there and say, “Okay,” everyone’s writing that down, right? “Use car notes.” I was like, no, no, no, you’re missing the point. You don’t need to just do a control search, replace for car loans, for car notes, that’s not the point. The point is that when there are little cues that we’re speaking the same language and that we understand you, that is going to benefit you greatly. I don’t know if I fully answered your question there.

Matt Bahl:
You answered that and about six others that I [inaudible 00:21:54], but one of the things I hear in your passion for this work is not just the role of authenticity but also, the role of showing up authentically. I think those can often be two different things. You can be an authentic person, but you go into a different context and you don’t show up authentically in that context. I think one of the real interesting things that I observed back when post George Floyd’s murder was I saw sort of employers grouping themselves into three buckets as they were responding. I saw those that were posting things like Black Lives Matter banners on their website, but then their frontline Black workers were still really struggling and there was no attempt to address some of those material defaults. Then you see other companies who already had some semblance of a program, usually rooted in the talent side of the house. This just sort of helped them expand that program.

Then you had what I considered to be a much smaller group that was not only expanding their talent programs, making strategic investments, but were really trying to change the material base and floor beyond which no one in their workforce would fall, which disproportionately in many of these workplaces where their Brown and Black workers. As you think about the different ways that employers responded coming out of 2020, does that sort of topology those three groups, does that resonate with you? Do you see differences in that?

Yemi Rose:
It does and it rings true. Look, I am not under any illusion that private corporations are going to solve the racial wealth gap, right? First of all, you’re only engaging with folks that already have jobs, so you’re already ahead of the game. What I do think is important, especially if we’re talking about shared value because we want these things to be sustainable and there has to be some shared value, these are companies that answer to shareholders. I think if they focus on the least or I guess the most financially fragile employee, then that has a ripple effect that goes through the organization. I guess that was the last of the three that you spoke to, right? Conversations about race are really emotive. Especially when some of these programs have to be okayed by the C suite and the CFOs, I want to keep it focused on data.

Let’s look at the data. Black women are the most stressed in the workplace. How can we work to support her and these women and their challenges? Right? In this work, initiatives typically fall in a couple buckets, and one is working on the systemic issues in terms of the root causes that are there, and companies have made good strides there. Again, these are companies, some folks may argue it’s not their responsibility, but I think if you exist in a biased system and you benefit from that biased system in any way, you have a responsibility to work to correct it. Some companies have put stuff in that bucket and that is long, patient work. We did not get where we are overnight and we absolutely are not going to solve these problems overnight. The other part of it is the repair work. Right now, today, what are some of the things that we can do to help folks who are in 2024, in 2025 trying to make a better life for their families?

That’s some of the work where some of these financial health initiatives come in where you can actually, in real time, try and do coaching and counseling and there are lots of things that don’t involve that offer direct financial assistance through grants. There’s emergency savings, there’s a services savings matching. I think those are, that’s kind of where we are focused because we are not going to … This is the system that we live in, and right now, today, folks need to be able to navigate and some of the work here is not sexy. We found that if you say to someone, “We’ve found outcomes in terms of, let’s say, home appraisals,” so much greater if you have a white friend show your home. We’re not going to tell people not to do that. We’re going to say, “Hey, look, if you have an opportunity to do that, get an ally to join you and do this because it will in real time give you the best financial outcome.”

All three of those things are effective. It’s just a matter of everyone has their lane. For us though, and for the companies that we work with a lot, it’s about how do you solve this problem today?

Matt Bahl:
I don’t think it’s a controversial statement to say that over the last year or so, we’ve seen a noticeable both rhetorical and a sometimes programmatic retreat from some of the corporate equity programs that are out there. I think it’s overstated to say that they’ve gone the way of the dodo or that they don’t exist. I think companies are still navigating their way through this. What are you anticipating this looking like, these ongoing efforts to support underrepresented groups in the workplace over the next five to 10 years? I appreciated this is a long, patient work, but looking in your crystal ball, what do you think this is going to look like over the next five to 10 years?

Yemi Rose:
I think it’s going to look a lot like what it looked like over the previous five to 10 years. I think it’s long work, as you pointed out, right? It’s patient work and it’s going to, if you follow history, there is progress, and then there’s pushback against that progress, and there’s progress again. It’s two steps forward, one step back, but these issues aren’t going away. They’re not going away. The folks that are impacted by these issues are not going away. We’re not just going to be like, “Okay, well, let’s pack everything up. It doesn’t look like we’re going to achieve this level of equity.” That’s not going to happen. The work continues, and right now all the trends point to a much more diverse country. Personalization is going to be extremely important as the U.S. becomes more of a melting pot of intersectionality.

Again, attitudes towards money are so personal and driven by our upbringing, our current situations, multi-development factors and driving action is equally complex. We know the importance of getting the right information to the right folks at the right time when they’re most able to receive it. The more you surround individuals with accessible information that resonates with them, and financial services and tools, the better chance you have at improving their financial lives. That is not change. Like I said, it’s always kind of been a struggle, but the beautiful thing is that you have enough organizations and companies that are doing the work and that are still going to lean in. You have backlash, and then you have the backlash against the backlash. My faith in this work is stronger than ever. Yeah, when I think about it within context, this is nothing. This is nothing compared to what folks had to do in the late sixties, even after the progress coming out of the civil rights movement, the backlash in the early eighties. I mean, this is just par for the course.

Matt Bahl:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s very powerfully said. I also think the idea that somehow these issues that are so manifest and so data-driven are somehow going to evaporate. I think what I’m hoping for is that we evolve our interventions. We do think about ways, and this is no surprise to you as we’ve talked about this, and this isn’t the purview of the work that you’re doing necessarily, but everyone, particularly those who are underrepresented, benefit from things like raising the wage [inaudible 00:30:24]. From creating-

Yemi Rose:
Oh, 100%.

Matt Bahl:
From creating better retirement solutions, making healthcare more affordable. I think focusing on those opportunities as well as leaning into this personalization, those are the things that to me are uncontroversial in-

Yemi Rose:
Exactly. Huge. Look, you are going to have situations where you are able to push things through because the tide lifts all boats, right? That benefits everyone, but it benefits a higher percentage of folks within certain groups that may struggle a little bit more with it. You have place-based strategies, you have all these strategies that will be really, really helpful. I have a lot of faith that we will be able to make progress even if there are headwinds.

Matt Bahl:
Yes. I just have one more question for you here as we close out. OfColor was recently acquired by Financial [inaudible 00:31:18], it’s really one of the OGs of financial wellness. How are you envisioning this partnership and this new expansion of the work that you’ve been leading? What excites you about it and what are you-

Yemi Rose:
Yeah, so it’s actually not even that new, right? We’ve been working with Financial Finesse for a while, and let me tell you, it’s really difficult to find a partner that shares your ethics and values and was doing this work before it became trendy. We were really, really fortunate to have them come on, even as an investor early on. Now, to be able to become a part of that family has been amazing. Look, they are able to bring to bear a lot of resources that, frankly, would be difficult for a smaller startup like OfColor. We talked about intersectionality, right? You have companies that want to ensure that their employees, regardless of race, religion, gender, sexual preference, the mix of things that make us unique, they want to ensure that they’re able to help their employees have better financial lives. Financial Finesse brings so much to the table in that regard, in terms of the integration of benefits into platforms that leverage technology and people.

Really, they serve as an extension of the benefits department to ensure that folks get the right resources based on their financial situation. We’re able to add that additional level of personalization in terms of race and culture. It really helps folks to max the full complement and the full suite of benefits in a really elegant and streamlined way. Kind of a one-stop shop that includes almost any integration. We are extremely happy to be able to leverage our think tank and their expertise with data and just the decades of experience that they have. There’s no real impact without scale, and they’re really helping us in that regard, and we’re excited for what the future holds.

Matt Bahl:
Well, Yemi Rose, my friend. Great to see you as always, and thank you for joining us on Emerge Everywhere.

Yemi Rose:
Thank you. Great chatting with you, Matt, and look, call me anytime.

Matt Bahl:
The financial health movement will only be successful if everyone comes to the table. Emerge Everywhere. Is proud to be sponsored by US Bank, a longtime champion on this journey. Thanks for tuning into this special edition of Emerge Everywhere, powered by the Financial Health Network. Visit our website to get the latest financial insights and resources enjoying the growing movement at www.finhealthnetwork.org.