John Hope Bryant | Lessons of History and Hope

Jennifer Tescher:
Welcome to Emerge Everywhere. I’m Jennifer Tescher, journalist turned financial health champion. As founder and CEO of the Financial Health Network, I’ve spent my career connecting forward-thinking leaders to the growing Fin Health movement. Now I’m sharing these conversations with you. Discover how these visionaries are challenging the status quo and improving financial health for their customers, employees, and communities. 

My guest this week, John Hope Bryant, brings passion, dedication, and pure enthusiasm to everything he does. Born and raised in Los Angeles, the 1992 Rodney King riots profoundly impacted John and led to the founding of his organization Operation Hope. For the last 30 years now, John has used the organization and his platform to address economic inequality, social injustice, and systemic financial barriers born out of the history of racism in the United States.  

John Hope Bryant, welcome to EMERGE Everywhere. 

John Hope Bryant:
Honored to be here. Honored to be with you. Thanks for all you do.

Jennifer Tescher:
And to you. We have both been at the work of financial inclusions for a long time that you’ve got a good eight years on me. You started Operation Hope in 1992 and it’s been really inspiring to watch your vision and your work grow and evolve over these last 30 years. I’d love for you to just talk a little bit about your flagship organization, Operation Hope, and the key learnings and pivot points on the journey. I think you’re such a well-known figure, and everyone knows Operation Hope, but I don’t think they really know just how much your organization is doing every day.

John Hope Bryant:
Operation Hope was founded after the Rodney King riots in 1992 as America’s first nonprofit social investment banking organization. And I was laughed at then by that, and a few other things, financial literacy, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Capitalism and free enterprise in the hood, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. We have four million clients. We have $4 billion in capital that our partners through Operation Hope is invested for home ownership, small business ownership, consumer credit, et cetera, down payment assistance, disaster recovery. We’re about to go into Florida right now. God bless those who are affected there. We created financial literacy policy, at least at the executive level with it, through George H.W. Bush and then Obama followed suit. We created emergency financial disaster preparedness response recovery policy under Secretary Tom Ridge for Secretary of DHS, our Homeland Security, and the national part with FEMA and Home and Security.

FEMA and Homeland Security, basically the economic Red Cross is our model. After you have a physical and emotional disaster, you have a financial one. We are in 46 states, 200 locations full-time, the budget last year doubled from our projections, and the work also doubled. We surged again during the pandemic. We surged, unfortunately, during every crisis. And whether it’s good news or bad news, there’s a role for Operation Hope. Our mission is to become America’s financial coach. As you know, my mission’s a little bit more than that, but so that people can understand it, it’s the private banker to the working class, folks with too much a month at the end of their money.

We’re raising credit scores. 54 points in six months, 120 points in 24 months. Nothing changed your life more than God or love then moving your credit score 120 points. We are reducing debt by $2600 for somebody making 50 grand a year. That’s transformational. We’re increasing savings, about $300 for that same individual. Doesn’t sound like a lot, but the average American, as you know, doesn’t have $400 for an unplanned event. So there’s much more to it, but that’s the bones of the organization. Founded, this is our 30th year, and we’ve only just begun.

Jennifer Tescher:
You know, mentioned the history of Operation Hope really being rooted in the LA riots and people still talk about that first bus tour, John, that you led, where you brought largely white male corporate execs to South Central LA to help open their eyes to the disinvestment. And now here we are 30 years later.

John Hope Bryant:
Hopefully, after that, too, by the way.

Jennifer Tescher:
I know, I know. But my question is, have things improved in the way that your 20-something-year-old self had hoped they would?

John Hope Bryant:
Better and worse?

Jennifer Tescher:
Say more.

John Hope Bryant:
It’s really funny, told my generational situation TI, the entertainer TI, he’s a friend of mine and he calls me a mentor and we were talking one day and I said something, he said, “Say less.” I said, “Excuse me.” You said, “Say it more.” I said, “What’s the matter with you? You trying to offend me? What do you mean say less? I’ve got a lot to say.” He’s like, “No, no. Say less,” meaning, I understand what you meant.

Jennifer Tescher:
Right. Well, I mean, listen, it is bold of me as a podcast host to be telling John Hope Bryant to say more because we all know you got a lot to say.

John Hope Bryant:
Yeah, talking to me is getting a glass of water out of a fire hydrant. But you never want to be the old guy in the club. So before you kick me out of this deal, I’m going to leave. No, look, passion’s not my problem. Look, I think that if you had asked me, would I be national with 200 locations with, I think, a logical vision to get to a thousand? No, I wouldn’t have said that. If you had asked me, would I say that corporate major corporations would just hand me their brand and large chunks of capital and trust me with it, I’d say no. If you’d ask me if this will become a mainstream issue in this country back then, based on where I came from, I would say no. So those are some positive things, and I can see scale coming around the corner.

The negatives are, the problem has outrun the moment. I think we’re in a moment. I think that we’re sitting in a moment in history right now. I don’t think history feels historic when you’re sitting in it. It just feels like another day. But that doesn’t mean it’s not historic. And you sort of feel like no matter how many speeches I give, no matter how many great podcasts, like yours, I do, no matter how many meetings I have, no matter how much I travel, somehow the problem and the issue of struggling people is outrunning my capacity in real time to solve it or address it. I think that the political environment has surprised me.

Jennifer Tescher:
In what way?

John Hope Bryant:
I never thought that this country would manipulate facts. I never thought that we would be dumb on purpose. I mean, to be stupid is a lot of work because we live in a smart economy. You can search anything if you want on your smartphone. The internet is available to everybody. Knowledge is accessible, common sense. You fill it in your gut. Women have an intuition. I’m not a woman, but I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. There’s a woman’s intuition, and I think there’s God speaking to you and through you. I think people know in their bones what the truth looks like. And now I sort of realize that democracy’s a very delicate thing, and you’ve got to protect it and earn it back every day, and we are in a very dangerous moment.

We’re in a cultural civil war because we never healed. We never said, “the Confederates, you lost. That was a sin, that was wrong. We’re Americans. Now, we’re all on this team now,” by the way, publicly acknowledge that. Okay, tear up that flag, and let’s be done with it. Now we’re all Americans, never did it. And that’s where we are … We just have a lot of unfinished business. And I never thought that it would bubble up to be mainstream. I knew there’d be fringe this and fringe that. But to have fringe in the main and to have people lying with a straight face is … I mean, good thing my middle name is Hope. So those are the two dichotomies. We have the infrastructure I never thought I’d have. The momentum I never thought I’d have. But now I’m trying to catch up to a fringe of problems.

Jennifer Tescher:
Well, and I think that begs the question, how do we as a nation simultaneously do that healing that you talk about and make progress on empowerment and ownership for Black Americans and people of color? How do you do those things at the same time? Because there’s equal pressure, frankly, on both right now.

John Hope Bryant:
So coincidence is God’s way of remaining anonymous. If it wasn’t for the global pandemic, the worst in 125 years, we wouldn’t have got rid of a certain individual who would’ve been reelected as president by an overwhelming margin. Luckily he mismanaged it. Because if he was had a second term, we’d be a banana, in my opinion. If it wasn’t for the pandemic and then the George Floyd incident that followed that and us … And because the pandemic, everybody’s watching the news. If it wasn’t for the pandemic, a large swath of us would’ve been like, “Well what was that thing? George who? Somebody Floyd? Okay, what time is dinner?” But because the pandemic we’re all watching the news, all of us, children, college students, hippies, everybody, and we saw a public lynching. Well, that triggered the 400-year-old social justice reckoning of Black America.

Then you had, I’m paraphrasing here, then you had January 6th, which is the first time that’s happened since the 1800s. And that was the British attacking us. These are Americans attacking us. And then you had this year, Roe versus Wade. I’m at a dinner in … And very like you, I go to these dinners, people expect us to talk. So I went to dinner in Sun Valley, and they sat me at the head of tables. I say, “Okay, here we go again.” And I didn’t have to say a word for 45 minutes because the wealthy white women at the table were cursing. They’re like, “This is some BS.” And they’re talking about Roe versus Wade, and they were upset. And after 45 minutes, I turned to them and said, “Well, congratulations. You now know what it feels like to be Black, when you don’t have a voice and no one’s listen to you and paying attention. And somebody tells you what to do with your body in your life and doesn’t care what you think about it. And so now that you’re outraged about this, what are you going to do about this?”

So now you have outrage about the environment. You have outrage. I mean, what happened in Florida would’ve been much less intense if we didn’t have global warming, warming of the season. Because hurricanes feed on warm weather, warm water, et cetera. You have the women’s rights issue. You have the environmental issue, you have this economic issue. It’s affecting everybody by the way, not just Black people. You have the global pandemic, you had this political unraveling. If you were a Republican, you’re wondering what the heck happened right to your party. So everybody’s got something to be pissed off about. That to me, that’s a reason for hope because if it is just Black people upset or just Latinos or just poor people, you’re doomed.

So there’s two reasons why I’m actually hopeful. Rainbows only follow storms. You cannot have a rainbow without a storm first. Number one, everybody’s got to a knot on their head. Everybody’s frustrated about something, and nothing gets solved unless you’re frustrated. If you were happy, you’d move on with your life. Number two, demographics or destiny. “I love math,” Mellody Hobson quote, “because it doesn’t have an opinion.” And the math for the first time in history is that people of color and women together become the demographic majority. Now that’s not some sort of wide eye liberal statement. It has nothing to do with any of that. Blacks won because we’re all in this thing together, that the economy lost 16 trillion, according to City Group report, and during the pandemic, because of racism against Blacks alone in the last 20 years alone. That every major company that is successful financially has embraced diversity and inclusion.

And companies that have hit a hard nose and thumbed out is because they actually has rejected progressive thought. The largest economies in the US, the largest economy in the US … Well, first of all, the US is the largest economy in the world, the most diverse place in the world. The two largest economies are the most diverse states. The only city in the South that embraces all people is the most economically prosperous, where I’m at in Atlanta, the moral capital of America. You can go on and on and on how diversity is a business case, not a moral case. That’s what gives me hope, is that the math now is on the side of justice. And by the way, we’ve been here before. I know you have a question coming up so I won’t upend it, because you mentioned we want to talk about the role of the private sector, but-

Jennifer Tescher:
But we’re going there next so go ahead. I mean, essentially while all these friction points and challenges have been going on, there’s been increasing pressure on the private sector to step up. I think there’s a lot of statements being made and a lot of commitments being made. And I’m curious to know what you think about those, whether you feel like it’s legit, it’s real. Is it window dressing, do you think? And do you think it’s lasting?

John Hope Bryant:
It’s the same answer I gave you about Operation Hope, and when I look back, it’s the same answer, but just different. $62 billion. $62 billion, $62 billion that was committed by corporations for social justice after George Floyd, well, by 2021 end of the year. That’s a big number by anybody’s measurement. Now, is some of that number fluff? Yes, it is. Because some of that by banks would’ve been done anyway, it’s mortgages and so and so forth. They’re already on a trend line to do some of that stuff, it’s their job, by the way, and to the Community Reinvestment Act to do it. But I don’t mind them getting credit for doing that, maybe it holds them accountable. But even if half of $62 billion is malarkey, I’ll take it. It’s still the largest commitment to social justice and economic uplift of those who are in the underserved in the history of any modern economy.

Jennifer Tescher:
Do you think the commitments are off the side of the desk, philanthropic, et cetera? Or do you think you’re seeing change in the actual business and business cases in the boardrooms?

John Hope Bryant:
That’s the question. I think that you’re saying, “This is business.” Maybe, to answer your question directly, this is business. I talk to everybody, CRA manager, vice president of public affairs, coming up my career. The speed dial I’ve got now are CEOs. CEOs, billionaires, the folks who lead the companies want to know, what the heck are you thinking, John? What are we doing? How are we doing it? This comes up to my desk now, this hits my desk. I’m dealing with the vice chairman, the chairman, the CEO, the shareholders, and they see their brand equity wrapped up in these issues and they see their customers and their employees wrapped up in these issues. So this used to be a foundation issue or a public affairs issue or a PR issue or community. Nothing wrong with that stuff, by the way. But now this is a squarely a business issue. They just don’t know what to do, that’s all. They want to do something. They don’t know what to do.

So a large part of this 62 billion, which I think is well-meaning, it’s just that the corporate suite does not know how to get down to the public street. That’s part of my job, part of your job, part of other folks’ job is to be the translator and the transmitter to help folks who want to do good, to do good, so they can go from Ph.D. to Ph-do. Let me give you a place of hope, we’ve been here before. The South where I’m at now, the southern states, were not integrated by the mayors and the governors and elected officials. In fact, those elected officials were standing oftentimes in the doors of progress and saying, “Over my dead body, will you enter this room?” playing on the fears of politics of that moment. It was the private sector, Jennifer, the private sector that stood up and said, “Knock it off, the color of my currency is green. And the Black folks got green just like the white folks got green, and y’all picketing in my neighborhoods and my city where the majority of the customers are Black. It’s causing me to go broke.”

So the JC Penney and Woolworth and the corner soda shop and the bus company, which back then was privately held, took down the whites-only signs first. And that was my mentor, ambassador Andrew Young, who negotiated those deals behind closed doors. Dr. King was shutting down the economy, and a few weeks later Andrew Young would go, put on a business suit behind closed doors and cut a deal, take down the whites-only signs. Now the leaders in that town, Jennifer, would go to the politicians and say, “Okay, now we’ve knocked it off and that’s time for you to knock it off. And by the way, you’re not compelled. We’re financing your campaign.” And that’s what changed the south, it was a private sector that opened it up. That’s why I have hope, one of the many reasons I have hope today. I think that racism is economically stupid. I actually think whenever you turn on the greed button on the saving the environment, the environment will be saved. I don’t mean that as bluntly as that sounded. But I mean, if you stop saying, “Do good,” and say to the-

Jennifer Tescher:
Yeah, listen. Self-interest is a very effective lever.

John Hope Bryant:
I mean, look, think about solar highways all around the world. We got concrete highways. Concrete, asphalt, which is raising all kind of heat level. This was created in the 1940s, 1950s. It was a huge boom for jobs, for contracting, it went on for 20 years. Imagine if you flip that switch worldwide around turning that into solar highways, plugging into solar homes, plugging into … And then those who have places that are hot, which tend to be poor, by the way, could sell that excess energy to places that are cold. Okay, Now you created a whole nother industry and set of businesses. We’re getting off topics, but I’m just saying in some ways, we’ve been looking for love in all the wrong places. Right?

Jennifer Tescher:
Yeah. So I love the way that you are a student of history and that you help connect points in history because history just repeats itself over and over again. But despite your embrace of the private sector and mine, I think we both would agree that government does play a vital role.

John Hope Bryant:
Oh, absolutely.

Jennifer Tescher:
And so the question is, particularly as it relates to racial equity, reducing the racial wealth gap, promoting Black wealth, what should the government be doing? There are many things the government is trying to do. What’s the most important thing it can be doing?

John Hope Bryant:
The groundwater effects. It’s really interesting. When I was coming up, folks did not take me seriously and they literally, literally rolled their eyes.

Jennifer Tescher:
Well, you were young back then, and back then, young people didn’t get anything done. And we’re like, unfortunately, Gen Xers. Everyone counted us out. Now today, young people do everything.

John Hope Bryant:
Well, you cannot have a movement actually without young people. And because young people are idealistic and they want to change the world. And Dr. King was young and Gandhi. I mean, all these folks that had started when they were young. Mandela started when he was young. And I was young, started Operation Hope. Thank God people dismissed me. They take me seriously, they would have stood in my way. By the time you look up, I’ve got momentum. You remember people. I’d walk into a room, you weren’t there in the room. I’m not talking about 20, 30 years ago, I’m talking about a decade, people still rolling their eyes. Okay, here comes John Bryant, whatever it is they had in their mind. My point is that I just saw something different than everybody else saw, and I was willing to take the road less travel and pursue it.

My point here is that I wasn’t taken seriously initially, and now I’m almost taken too seriously. Because now people were asking me … not asking me. “Is he going to run for office?” “I help him is he going to be trying to unseat me,” or whatever the … Again, fear and stupidity, if I was going to run for office I would’ve done it by now. I really do believe in what it is I’m doing and believe that this could be a transformational historic force for good. I think this is what Dr. King would be doing if he was alive today, and one thing sets up another. So Dr. King didn’t run for office as an example. Dr. King set up in an environment for office holders to do the right thing. Dr. King won the Nobel Peace Prizes and went to see Johnson. Johnson didn’t want to see him because he was afraid Dr. King was going to ask him for something.

So they tried to come up with all kind of excuses, just finally had to see him. They saw him in the residence that night, meaning no TV cameras. “I’m sorry, Dr. King, I can’t do another Civil Rights Bill. I’m just doing this very quickly, so we move on something else. “I’m sorry Dr. King, we can’t do another Civil Rights Bill.” And Dr. King said, “Why?” He says, “Well, you think I’ve got more power as President than I really have. I’m sorry.” So they left and Dr. King was smiling at Andrew Young. And Andrew Young said, “Why are you smiling, we got our hat handed to us?” He said, “Well Andy, the President said that he thinks that we think that he’s got more power than he really has. Well Andy, that’s what give the Presidents more power.” And Andrew Young turned to Dr. King and said, “I’ve never heard a more arrogant thing from a Morehouse man than that.”

But they went to … Within two months, you had the Pettus Bridge incident. Again, we don’t have time for unpack the whole story, but that was also an accident of history. Dr. King was supposed to be there on another Sunday. Sorry, he was going to be there that Sunday, but he got his schedule mixed up. He didn’t show up. They never would’ve attacked folks on the Pettus Bridge if Dr. King was there. The attack happened that created an environment where Johnson created another Civil Rights Bill. We ended up having four. So there are groundwater effects in our system that I can’t do anything about. Somebody needs to at the policy level. But what I can do is tee up the results, tee up the moment, create the positive friction that’ll allow leaders to pass financial literacy for all, in K through college, and funded. To pass legislation that gives a tax credit for internships at scale, apprenticeships at scale. So we are, I think, the instigator.

Jennifer Tescher:
At the time we’re recording this, I suspect that tomorrow you will be in Washington at the Freedman Bank event, which treasury has now turned into an annual event, really focused on economic inclusion. And when I think about the role of government, and I think about the Freedman’s Bank, in fact you kind of inspired me. This goes back to the idea of truth and reconciliation and the need for healing. When I think about the history, the Freedman Bank story, and the fact that the government ultimately let it fail, didn’t come in and backstop it, and the hundreds of thousands of people who lost everything, the tragedy of managing to scrape together a little something after being set free, only to have it lost forever.

But we have those records, we know exactly who is owed and how much, and we could make a very easy calculation about what that is worth in today’s dollars. So when I think about what the government could be doing, I think about sort of a mini Freedman’s Bank reparations. It’s not the capital R reparations that a lot of people talk about. It’s more like what you see colleges and universities doing when they think about, oh, we owned slaves and let’s calculate the benefit that we owe those people. I’m curious, what do you think about that and what other ways can the government really make good on what happened over history with the Freedman’s Bank?

John Hope Bryant:
First of all, I want to say that what you just said is brilliant. And as much as I think and do and whatever people say, I’m an innovative thinker, I had never thought of what you just said. And my first reaction was, I was going to tell you I thought you were wrong. But actually, I think you’re right. The reason I say going to say I thought you were wrong is, if you were going to say this, thus reparations for all. Reparations for all would literally bankrupt the largest economy on the planet because those enslaved were worth twice as much what railroads were worth in the 1840s. And we literally built this country for free. The country has been two-thirds enslaved, one-third free. People don’t realize that. And everybody was involved with the banks, insurance companies, universities. It’s touched every part of society, writ large.

And it is incalculable from an economic … The largest reverse transfer of wealth, in certainly in American history, maybe world history, because of how big the US economy is, is and has been slavery. So it is a wrong you cannot fiscally make right. But this thing about Freedman’s Banks, that’s very doable. And it’s very logical because the best records in the world for formerly enslaved are, people don’t know, Freedman’s Banks’ records. Because if you were a union soldier and you died in the line of duty, the government had to know where to send your assets. And so they went three deep on documenting your family structure. Because of slavery there aren’t those natural records to find. My great grandfather was … My grandfather was a slave, sorry. My great-grandmother was a slave. I can’t get beyond my great-grandmother’s records. I can’t get beyond my great-grandfather’s records because they were owned by somebody, like a pair of shoes.

So this idea you have is brilliant. And there were 71,000, I think, depositors, they were union soldiers primarily, and they were being preyed upon in local camps by the check cashers of that day. And the bank was created, domiciliary savings, and quote, teach them about the language of money. Financial literacy circa 1865. What people don’t know, Jennifer, is that two months before the Freedman’s Bank was, Field Action 15, which allocated 40 acres per union soldier in a pilot program, and then the mule came the month after. Because they worked that land really hard, they said, “My God, they’re so industrious. Give them a mule.” People don’t know that’s the story of 40 acres and a mule. The bank came 30 days later to finance the land and domicile the savings, giving them the sort of the Jewish economic infrastructure experience of land, tools, machinery, economics, money, for those who are oppressed.

And then Lincoln was killed the next month when he promised Blacks the right to vote. And Booth said, “That’ll be the last speech you ever give.” And so you wonder today why Blacks, Native American Indians and poor whites are left out of the economic system. I mean, African American Blacks, not African Blacks, Caribbean Blacks. It’s because they were never given the memo, the financial … How the system works, how does economics work? They were denied the basic infrastructure and systems of how to succeed in the capitalist society. Poor whites shows you it is not just racial, it’s just worse if you’re Black, Native American Indians and African Americans. And I love, just again, breaking this down into facts and details, getting it out of the generic so you can understand it. So the Freedman’s Bank idea you have for reparations, with a small R, is a brilliant idea, and I think it will show that we believe in right in this country.

Jennifer Tescher:
Let’s work on that together, you and me.

John Hope Bryant:
Oh, be honored to.

Jennifer Tescher:
I think that would be fun. All right, one last question I have for you. We could talk all day, but you know are always clear about whose shoulders you stand on and you talk about that a lot.

John Hope Bryant:
By the way, some people resent even that I renamed the Freedman’s Bank. That’s a whole nother …

Jennifer Tescher:
No.

John Hope Bryant:
Oh yeah. It’s unbelievable. Here’s a quote for your listeners. This is what Andrew Young mastered. Dr. King, “Talk without being offensive. Listen without being defensive, and always leave even your adversary with their dignity. Because if you don’t, they’ll spend the rest of their life try to make you miserable.” It becomes personal. And I would encourage people to listening to this to learn to step over mess and not in it. Win the battle, not the war. Don’t rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic in your life. Just let it go and keep it moving. Let the work be your legacy.

Jennifer Tescher:
So this is another example of how you are constantly inspiring other leaders. And what I want to know is who inspires you? I know there are many people from the past who inspire you every day. I’m curious in present day, who inspires you?

John Hope Bryant:
Well, Andrew Young’s still here. He’s 90.

Jennifer Tescher:
True.

John Hope Bryant:
He is around the corner. So I call him my hero. I’ll talk to him today. He answers the phone, “Hey, my hero.” I love the dude. I mean walking history. Bishop T.D. Jakes, dear friend of mine, and he is who we know him to be, privately as publicly. Doug McMillan, CEO of Walmart. That dude is real. I mean, he’s my co-chair of Financial Literacy for All. He emails and texts me directly, he doesn’t push it off on somebody. We don’t have time for this. But the story they can tell you about the boldness with which he moved quickly, and he did it himself so that his staff couldn’t stop him, was inspiring. CEO of Delta Airlines, Ed Bastian. CEO of PayPal. I’m going his wedding tomorrow in Italy. I should’ve said that. Dan Schulman. The CEO of Nike, John Donahoe. Luckily I can go down his list forever.

I mean, Maxwell Meyers, the producer of, arguably the most powerful business show in the world, Squawk Box, who doesn’t have me on the Black guest, just a guest. And he puts me up with whomever and is in my job to be the last man standing on the issue of the day, not the Black issue of the day, just the issue of the day. And by doing that, you prove that it’s not a Black guest, it’s just a guess who happens to be Black. There are a lot of these. Bill Rogers of Truist. Charlie Scharf is a new friend of mine, a guy I really admire at Wells Fargo, who’s fighting a good fight and doing the right thing. Brian Jordan at First Horizon Bank. And women and men, Oprah Winfrey and others who have quietly done the right thing consistently.

Jennifer Tescher:
Yeah. Yeah. John, thank you for joining me on Emerge Everywhere.

John Hope Bryant:
My honor to be with you, and keep changing the world everywhere.

Jennifer Tescher:
Excellent.

This has been Emerge Everywhere, a Financial Health Network production. If you like the show, please help spread the financial health message by leaving a review. And if you have ideas for future guests or thoughts on the show, please click on the link in the show notes to connect with us. See you next time.